Secular Sankofa: Black Humanist Voices from the Association of Black Humanists

We Reclaim Our Future By Owning Our History with S.I.Martin

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"We're stewards of all of this information, and it's our responsibility — not anyone else's — to own our own conclusions." — S.I. Martin

S.I. Martin is a British historian, author, and teacher specialising in Black British history and literature. He is the author of Incomparable World and Britain's Slave Trade, and founded the 500 Years of Black London walks.

Host Audrey Simmons talks to S.I. Martin about owning the archive rather than outsourcing it, why Black history should start from the bottom up, and why he believes it's time to "drop religion like a hot brick." The conversation ranges from Christian nationalism and the erosion of rights to the pull of African spirituality among the younger generation.

🎙️ In this episode

  • Why archival ownership matters — examining evidence and drawing our own conclusions
  • Starting Black history from the bottom up, not with kings and prophets
  • Whether a distinct African-based humanism is needed
  • Why religion is now a luxury "we can't afford"
  • Christian nationalism, Farage, the Robinsons, and the erosion of rights
  • The pull of African spirituality as "our nonsense"
  • Mubarak Bala, online unbelief, and what gives Steve hope

🔗 Further reading

🔗 Referenced and further reading

  • S.I. Martin's website and 500 Years of Black London walks: simartin.org.uk
  • Incomparable World, S.I. Martin   
    https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/320879/incomparable-world-by-martin-s-i/9780241482704
  • Britain's Slave Trade, S.I. Martin
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Slave-Trade-Channel-History/dp/0752272519— available via major booksellers
  • Mubarak Bala's imprisonment for blasphemy: BBC News

Thanks for listening to the Secular Sankofa Podcast, produced by the Association of Black Humanists (ABH). If you enjoy the show, please follow, rate, and review — it helps more people discover Black humanist voices.

Stay connected with us:

Learn more about our work and community at abhumanists.org

🎙️ Podcast produced by Humanise Live a podcast production agency based in London, serving charities, companies, and individuals across the globe.

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🎶 Music: Icy by Jeff Kaale

Welcome and meet S.I Martin

Audrey Simmons

Welcome to Secular Sankhofa, the podcast of Association of Black Humanists. A space where we speak boldly, think freely, and live consciously. Here we have an honest and unapologetic conversation about race, belief, and power and liberation from a black and godless point of view. My name is Audrey Simmons and I'll be your host today. And on today's show, we are joined by someone who is a great friend and supporter of Association of Black Humanists, Mr. S.I. Martin. Welcome to you. Good morning. He is a British historian, a researcher of historical archives, and a teacher specialising in Black British history and literature. And I really want to thank you for joining us today. And I'm really looking forward to today's show where we're going to be looking at views, um, kind of get your views and perspective on some of the issues that we are facing today and to keep a watchful eye on what's going on in the future. And today's focus is taken from our name, Sankofa, which from some of you may know means to go back and pick it up, or to use another way to look at using our history to inform our future. And I think those are the kind of things that we want to discuss with you today as part of the show. Now, before we get to all of that, I think it would be a good way just to kind of for people who don't know you, who don't know your work or anything about you, to kind of give a brief introduction to you, Steve.

S.I. Martin

Wow, how long have you got? Okay, so yeah, I'm Steve Martin, but I publish and practice, I would say, under the name SI Martin, my initials, which were obviously given to me by my parents who arrived in these islands in the late 1950s from the island of Antigua. And they settled in the heart of England in Bedford, a little market town, which has just gone a lot into my whole psychology, let's just say that. And yeah,

Growing Up Godless in Bedford's Black Church

S.I. Martin

it was an interesting upbringing. I thought it was a good one, but it was infused with religion. A lot of it, a lot of straight up heavy Christianity. The local church, the local uh black church was a church of God in Christ, Kojik, part of the American franchise, which is what it is, which held the flock in absolute thrall. I mean, I could see the values of this institution. It was a place of meeting, of trying to make sense of the world, even if it was using nonsense, it was, in a sense, our nonsense to a little degree. It was a place of just community cohesion, but also a place of power where people, individuals, particularly men, could have some sort of authority, which was just not present in the world. And, you know, they could shower themselves with all sorts of titles. And of course, there was the portrait of the Nazarene, the white Christ, you know, looking down, literally looking down on us, making sure that we were behaving ourselves, which was it just did not align with, you know, my nascent just common sense. You know, what is that? But as I said, I was lucky, I did have a good childhood. And my dad, reaching, when I reached the age of 12 or 13, he actually offered us the choice, my brother and I. We're given the choice. I I think he might have just been um a doubter, a more serious doubter than he let on domestically. But he gave us the choice, and my brother and I, do we want to continue going to church regularly? And of course the answer was no. It made no sense at all. Not just philosophically, but energetically on a Sunday morning. Come on. So that wasn't gonna happen. And from that point on, I just started exploring more, you know, the world of um mostly skepticism, disbelief, and also the impact that these belief systems had on um organized religion, particularly the big sky god religions, the catastrophic impact that it still has on uh communities of African origin.

Owning the Archive: History From the Bottom Up

Audrey Simmons

Thank you for that. I think that immediately you create it. I think it's it the the the experience of many of us who come from the you know, the Caribbean or African community of that kind of idea that when we're born, you know, you you come out of your mother's womb and you're shoved into the church and that's where you are. We're not always given the option though to leave. So I think that is a very unique situation for you. Many of us had to keep going and struggle on until we were in our teens and you know, much older, until we could make those decisions ourselves, or were able to challenge them from an from as an adult. So I think, yeah, you're echoing you know, the black community in in a very clear way there. And you're someone that has facts and knowledge of history at you know, at their fingertips, you have that knowledge there. How does being someone who has looked at the archives, who's done all of that, you know, historical research, how does that shape the way that you approach the conversations about belief and disbelief today?

S.I. Martin

A lot, actually. It's about um, you know, for me in my practice, I'm all about having developing a sense of ownership of um archival material and examining evidence, but owning our own conclusions and developing our conclusions, particularly as people of African origin, that you know, we're stewards of all of this information and it's our responsibility, it's not anyone else's responsibility to be doing these things for us. We can't or shouldn't outsource it. Why would we? Why would we invite other parties or entities to involve themselves in our uh own making? Also, I um I think we should have these body of narratives at the core of what we do. And when I say body of narratives, I'm talking about, again, from my practice, looking at the stories of everyday people, uh looking at everyday successes, starting history from the bottom up. Because, you know, we do have a particular history which involves a huge amount of overcoming. And because of that inordinate amount of overcoming and self-creation, it can often lend or open itself to the temptation of these fantastic and fabulous stories of gods and kings and heroes and prophets and mysticism. So I go back to front on that. They say that our stories should start at the base level, that the going from the bottom up, that they should be stories of uh everyday victories of everyday people under extraordinary circumstances. And because I'm hyper-local, I like to start from where I am or where the audience I'm talking to is. I'll be looking at stories of, let's say, ordinary black men and women who were living, you know, saying or hunting them, who managed to live decent, respectable, conflicted, compromised lives. So, you know, that we can actually properly stand on people's shoulders and you know, see ourselves in the round forks and all, but love ourselves all the same without all these titles and honorifics and posturing. I don't know how to say it any other way.

Audrey Simmons

And I think it's also about owning that narrative that it's from us, and we can look at our, you know, our ancestors and those in the back, and we can say, yeah, you know, they were faulty, they were, you know what I mean, but they're ours, and we can create that net narrative about them from our perspective. And a lot of the time our stories, they're not even just changed, they're dismissed, they're erased.

S.I. Martin

Yes. Isn't this interesting? You know, this discomfort that we know we have with these. And I think where the pain is, that's a lot of the pain and confusion and compromise. That's where a lot of the meat is. These are springboards to the future because you know, we have examples of what not to do rather than, you know, people who are just abundantly and divinely blessed or who were, you know, had unearned wealth or fortune. No, we come from something very, very important and very special, and we should treasure it.

Audrey Simmons

Absolutely. Thank you for that. Also,

Toward an African-Rooted Humanism

Audrey Simmons

thinking about you as a humanist, as humanists, we try to emphasize and share dig you know, and share dignity and to remember our humanity, which has been, you know, we have been our humanity over the centuries has been sort of discarded, dismissed as as non-existent. So, how do you think history can be used, not only to understand the past, as you know, that's what we do when we're thinking about past, but also to build more, more compassionate and inclusive society in today's world?

S.I. Martin

Yeah, I think initially by looking for commonality, and you know, everything I'm doing is just tend to be going back to basics in some way or another, but looking for commonalities between individuals, between groups, between nations, looking for also examples of best practice and if those examples can be transferred or if not, why not? And looking, and that's a point I think I was trying to flag up earlier, looking at things in the round, trying to look at things, you know, both for good and the bad, because that's something which I think often is lacking in our approach. And um, it has to as well be, again, based in justice. An idea of justice has to underpin what we do and the sorts of humanism that we take forward. And um, there's a bigger question as well, though, which I mean I'm still not perfectly answered or I'm not comfortable with um my current thinking on it. It's very incomplete, which is that is there a need for a very specific sort of African-based humanism or African culture diasporic as well, humanism, and to what degree? How will that take shape? I'm inclined to say yes, but I don't know how that's going to take shape or what even the first steps could be towards that.

Audrey Simmons

Do you know something, Steve? You raise something that's so, I mean, as Association of Black Humanists, this is the this is the very essence of what we grapple with all the time. We have this narrative and understanding of humanism. But I think as with all kinds of philosophies, all kinds of ideas, it isn't a one-size-fits-all. And even if we look at religion, if we take Catholicism, if we take Irish Catholicism or Spanish, or there's a cultural element to all of those things as well. Because if there wasn't, you couldn't take it on wholesale in the way that you do, because you have to be able to relate to it. And sometimes a European humanism or the the perspective of the European doesn't always sit as neatly or manifest itself as as coherently as someone who comes from the Caribbean would actually be able to relate to in quite the same way. We can take all of those bits and then all of the bits of being kind and altruism and all of those things that we think about. But then we have to make them relatable. And you were talking about taking things locally, and I think humanism, we know, we need to work out how how we do that.

S.I. Martin

Yeah, it's it's difficult, I think, particularly because you know, we live in a diaspora and um we're a part of a diaspora, I should say, including continental Africans. Incredibly diverse, incredibly diverse sets of backgrounds, origins, values, and I'm sort of worried about trying to water this complexity and diversity down into some essentialist, easily cloggable set of values. I think it's a bit of a, I think it's a big ask, but it's worth going for. But it's gonna be a um a difficult journey, I think.

Audrey Simmons

You were

Diaspora, Displacement, and Being Homogenised as Black

Audrey Simmons

talking about being in a diaspora. We're also a people who are displaced, displaced from our communities, displaced from our history, displaced from, you know, where we originally came from. And when we are in these spaces, we're in America, where we're in places where we don't look like the people around the majority people, we're also homogenized in a way that even does, you know, and so our individuality, so we have this label of being black because it's useful to kind of bring us together, but then it misses the individuality, it misses, you know, the kind of what we do as individuals. So we're not labelled as Jamaicans or Nigerians or even, you know what I mean? We're not labelled in those ways. We're we're homogenized into this group, and we're supposed to act as one, and that can be difficult when we're looking at humanism, when we're looking at European humanism and all of those kinds of things. There is a kind of is there still a homogenistic way of, you know, of European humanism? Is that still, although we think of it in that way, is that still the same thing?

S.I. Martin

No, I think as you explained, why not? Because in your opening remarks here, because they, you know, the Europeans or Europeans globally, they do have the advantage of um, you know, being the holders of capital, being through the media the creators of meaning, etc., etc. So it's totally different. My concern, obviously, we need to be greater creators of meaning and holders and creators of capital, but on a more basic level of fundamental values, unfortunately, there are all kinds of ridiculous diaspora wars still going on between us. Real and rage-bait diaspora wars. But um it's overcoming those things in the, you know, the reality of them, you know, between behaviors and values, between people who live in, say, Handsworth to Toscaloosa, Alabama, to Trinidad, to Kigali, doing that fusion in good

Religion's Catastrophic Cost: Time to Let Go

S.I. Martin

faith.

Audrey Simmons

And I suppose at the heart of all of this, as a as a black people, we have the interruption insertion of religion as well. So we're trying to find ourselves culturally in those different places, but also we've got this insertion of something that's quite odd that doesn't have anything to do with us, and we've suddenly, you know, positioned it as the center of our worlds as well. And I find that a little strange because we have to deal with something additional to do to do with our history, slavery, colonialization, and then the insertion of the, you know what I mean, this Palestinian Jew and you know, on all that goes with that as well, and then try to create a people out of that, uh, this mix, this heady mix of of stuff.

S.I. Martin

Yeah, so it's I think it's catastrophic, and you know, we need to drop it like a hot brick right now, yesterday, because um, it can only take us so far. It can be said to have served a purpose when there was actual ongoing chattel slavery, when we had the value of a table or a piece of glassware, probably less. Um, so it could have served a purpose then, it could have given us hope beyond hope when you couldn't see ourselves imagine ourselves inhabiting a world outside of generational, generationally being owned, quite literally. So, yes, it has its place then as a sanctuary for the most desperate, but we're just not in those times now. And also, you know, if you can read the Bible, then you know, you can read Chinowa Achebi, you can read Marx, you can read, you know, you have that mental mobility. So there's no excuse for not at least being skeptical, if not um agnostic or straight-up atheist. It's a luxury we can't afford.

Audrey Simmons

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I agree. Now, I know that you're used to, you know, you're you've got your head in you know in the archives, and that's where you know you're comfortable.

Christian Nationalism, Race and the Eroding Rights

Audrey Simmons

But I also know that you are in touch with what is going on today. You are there in what's happening today. And across Britain and beyond, we are seeing the rise of Christian nationalism, not only in the white community, but it black people are latching onto it as well. So, what's your perspective? What parallels do you see from earlier moments when religion was fused with political power and identity?

S.I. Martin

Okay, so well, just in terms of the UK initially, well, we we are still carrying collectively as citizens, subjects really, of these islands, the legacy of that whole fusion between church and state. Going back, well, how far do you want to go back? To the 100s at least, the 11th century, you can see that you know that from that point onwards there were um ecclesiastical courts, um, you know, bishops and abbots, who are massive landowners. I think they were the largest landowners in the country, were at the center of power. There's no difference. You know, they sat, of course, as they some still do, in parliament, uh in the Lords. But yeah, at every state that, you know, you want to look at, you can see, you know, even under obviously Henry VIII, who goes as far as breaking from Rome, 1530s, and declaring himself the supreme head of the Church of England. What? And of course, you know, the current monarch is still King Charles, he's still the supreme head of the Church of England. And they're followed by a period of um religious conflicts domestically. You've got uh under Mary, people being burnt at the stake. It's just crazy. And then the Civil War. Uh, you know, it's basically, you know, two types of Protestants, you know, one official Anglican Protestants and one Ludwig. This is very, very broad, cartoonish terms, but I find it a cartoonish subject. And on the other hand, you know, you've got non-conformists who, you know, after the Restoration in 1660 become excluded by law from um serving in the military, going to certain universities, particularly Oxford and Cambridge, and yeah, just other parts of public life. So, I mean, that's the background. There's a lot more, a lot, lot, lot more. So it's it's not a modern history, it's not nothing new at all. It's part and parcel of this island story. But coming to the present, I cannot take British Christian nationalism seriously at all. I just, what are you talking about? British Christian nationalism. One of the things, if I believed in a deity, I'll just say, well, it's May, it's the May weekend. Um, I'll raise a glass to whatever pagan uh uh entity um is still having some rulership over these islands because there is just a great, healthy, active pagan sense of irreverence, which I think is the biggest, uh, the biggest barrier to the penetration of Christian nationalist ideas. I mean, if you're looking at the relationship of the modern Britain to the Christian faith in particular, no, that person will probably be a put someone from a visible minority background. Looks like you and me. We are keeping the church alive, including the Anglican Church, the Church of England as well. So I cannot see, I mean, especially, I'm not talking about clownishness. If Christian nationalism is being represented by Tommy Robinson and Calvin Father, Calvin Robinson, with his uh mixed background self, he's out there fronting and pushing Christian racist Christian, of course, Christian nationalist ideas, white Christian nationalist ideas, it won't get much traction. So I'm not really worried about Christian nationalism in uh the UK. But in the United States, 100%, because it is the last refuge of uh those uh the racist wretches. It's uh that's a natural and inevitable home for them. I think that's a much bigger danger. But I can't see it as a philosophy spreading over here, but um, you know, the racist uh foundations of it uh might do or have done already, what am I talking about?

Audrey Simmons

I was gonna say we have Farage, and he's always being touted as the next prime minister. That would affect everything, I I think, and we can see as we can see what's happening with Project 25, and there's obviously there's a Project 26, and we can see what's happening with Trump. And we in Britain, we do look across the pond and start adopting. So I'm I've been thinking about education and race relations and migration and all of the rights that we have fought for since you know, since we've been here, we've been fighting to, you know, 1919 all the way up, just fighting, fighting, fighting. It's been a constant fight to see all of those eroded, possibly in one term, maybe less. Is that not a consideration too? It is a consideration.

S.I. Martin

Um I'm extremely concerned about the pressing possibility, I should say, of um a Farage-led government. It will be catastrophic. But, you know, we have to really play this one very, very sensibly in terms of not just our own, some of us are going to participate in the foolishness, but also, you know, you are mentioning that erosion of human rights. And I'm in fact more immediately concerned with, again, the religious participation in the erosion of human rights, which is, you know, I have to uh include Islam as well as fundamentalist Christianity. You know, both the sorry, fundamentalist Islam as well as fundamental Christianity, both of those expressions in Britain are they have black faces. I'm trying to find a euphemism. They have non-white faces. So, you know, non-European peoples are, you know, the poster children for extremist Islam and Christianity in Britain. And they are very connected to or very vocal about uh pushing back all kinds of human rights, euthanasia, uh women's rights, LGBT rights, prayer in school, religious worship in the prominence in education, formal education, everybody's education. No, we need to really watch ourselves in that respect. Because, you know, it's along that particular fault line that, you know, religion and race, it puts us on the back foot. Because, yeah, people can actually say that are we enemies of progress to that regard? It's arguably, arguably, yes. And that can be weaponized against us, or we'll weaponize it against ourselves.

Audrey Simmons

Thank you

Authoritarians Without Authority

Audrey Simmons

for that. I think it's a it's a really interesting point that we actually become our own worst enemies in terms of thinking about who are the proponents of. I mean, I think of, you know, I'm gonna say her name and I apologize for now for saying mentioning the name of, you know, Kimmy Badanock and and because we want to have that close that that close relationship. To the, you know, the British elite and all of that. And we and I think we perpetuated this by sending, because the educational system, the base state education system was so bad, a lot of parents decided that the private sector was the way to go. And what that produced was people who thought, like, you know, Boris Johnson. But now we have the black version of that. And that is where we are at at the moment. In trying to help our children and giving them that leg up in society, we've created another group of people who are, you know, who don't see themselves as being related to us in a way.

S.I. Martin

Yeah, interesting. Because I am a product of those processes you've described. I like you say we are all, those of us who went through those processes, survivors of those experiences, one way or another. But that underpinning that is that drive, the compulsion to align ourselves with authority that, you know, we don't see in the world. One description of a lot of our religious communities is like, you know, we are authoritarians without any authority. So we will align ourselves with uh status symbols and authority and seek that proximity to power or create parodies or parallels, parallels or parodies of that power. It's always going to be there. But you're right about um the much maligned and misunderstood carrying back the knock. She is a blur but uh a wonderful example of that. And now there's so many ways that you know we can make a mess of the next 10 to 15 years, but it all seems to converge amongst us along the same things. How do we describe ourselves as in as individuals and as uh groups within nations and globally? We need to get about that now rather than looking for places in anyone's shadow cabinet.

Audrey Simmons

Thinking

African Spirituality and dreams of Wakanda

Audrey Simmons

about that for now, you and I are of a certain generation. They're kind of the last of that kind of windrush generation. We've got a new generation now. Many young people, Canadian people, African people of African heritage, are searching for our belonging, are still searching for identity because of this mixed-up history that we've had. Whilst they are moving away from mainstream, you know, from mainstream religion, group of people who are doing that, they seem to be moving towards this African spirituality that seems to be taking hold. With there's this idea of going back to before slavery, and somehow that's where we will find ourselves. What are your thoughts on that? Is spirituality better than mainstream religion?

S.I. Martin

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to express what I'm feeling. Okay, ultimately, I don't know. And I have to say, just to be charitable, I can't say if it's better or not. But personally, I think it's preferable. And that, you know, the caveat for me is that, you know, I believe it's nonsense. Uh, a lot of the spiritualities that I've been I've seen, you know, some of the like EFA, you know, some of its divination procedures, you know, they're quite interesting, but that doesn't make them true. Um, but some of the expressions of those belief systems, no, uh, I've got very little time for them personally. However, I think it being nonsense, as I said before, it's our nonsense. And it has some root, some grounding in the experiences of some of our peoples or some of our ethnic groups. So it just has that great sense of ownership. And I'm not going to say belonging because I don't believe in them. I don't think they're real, but there's just a greater sense of ownership and uh freedom to criticize in those things as well, because we're still far too much in the thrall of um these big sky desert god religions. But I do think, and I'm loved to see that there is some pushback against established, you know, the those established religions. And yeah, I I I think it's a good and very, very welcome thing.

Audrey Simmons

Yeah, I also think it's something to do with trying to carve a way that was ours. And I think I always wonder who would, you know, who would then, you know, what is now Nigeria or South Africa or Mali or Rwanda, what kind of people would we have been if there hadn't been this interruption of color of slavery, colonialism, and religion? How would we have formed ourselves based on those religious, those kinds of spiritual, that kind of the the African religions that were already there? Where would we have gone? Because we may have ditched them, but what would we have created or know what kind of societies we would have created? And I think there's this yearning to know who could we have been without this interruption insertion.

S.I. Martin

Yes, I mean dreams of Wakanda. You know, we want to know that. And it's both pathetic and beautiful at the same time and ultimate are absolutely necessary to keep those visions in mind because it seems obvious to me that the belief systems that we would have had, again, would have been our own. We'd have had that sense of, you know, stewardship over them, and even being, you know, answerable to them for what that's worth. But it would be just a sense of looking to ourselves to a greater degree, for right or for wrong, but just looking to ourselves and having that sense of responsibility rather than having literally our heart in Mecca or Jerusalem, or even more worryingly in Washington, DC with Donald Trump, you know, who is for a lot of people their Lord and Savior. Again, you're uh looking for that aligning with power, um, you know, aligning with authority, all of that sort of thing. So I've lost my thread there of what I was what I was replying to because uh, oh yes, where we would have been, yeah, yeah, we we would have had a more continental African-based center, point of reference, rather than have um an external, the psychologists call it something I'm gonna forget, an external locus of control. Yeah. So we would have had an internal locus of control, whereas we would feel a greater sense of responsibility for ourselves and for our future, rather than being at the mercy of the World Health Authority or the IMF or failing them spirits and demons and ghosts and curses and prophecies, or the white man, or come into a country of you, the Indian or the China? No, it would be about us. We'd be our first and principal point of reference. And I think that changes everything.

Audrey Simmons

Yeah, I

Lessons from the Past to Claim our Future

Audrey Simmons

think that's a really important point. And just kind of thinking about, you know, what we have learnt and what we know about the past. So, what would be some of the things that we know about the past that we can kind of go, let's grab this, grab that, and you know, use it now in our future, the things, the lessons that we've you the lessons that we learned, or how you know, what can we bring to the future to encourage and support and take us forward as we go forward now?

S.I. Martin

Yeah, well, first and foremost, and again, this is a part of my practice, the cultivation of young people and the belief and faith in young people, because a lot of my work looks at the lives of young people, particularly in the British Isles, but also in the Caribbean and North America and continental Africa, who are making extraordinary decisions and who are possessed of possessed with the um uh ingenuity and passion and foresight to see things through. I'm just tapping into that human potential, which is a thing that absolutely fascinates me, and we are losing a whole other conversation down to AI and just being comfortably dumb. About all of those things to do with memory, to do with mathematical, just mental maths, to do with mapping, which can be transferred infinitely into other zones, including making relationships. But yes, it would be investing in young people, investing in the future, because they have the power to change things, because they can, with our help, change themselves and us.

Audrey Simmons

Wonderful.

Mubarak Bala and the Pressure to Stay

Audrey Simmons

I'm just thinking now, I don't I know we are British based, but we have a lot of people from the African diaspora who are here in the UK. You know, as Association of Black Humanists, we know that there are a lot of um young people out there, or people in general, who would like to leave religion and just, you know, be themselves. What kind of pressures do you think stops them from doing that? What kind of things do you think are happening?

S.I. Martin

Pressures for people of continental African background a lot and hard. I mean, we don't have to look far at all to see just the conversation we're having now. That would be categorized uh by many believers as um not just blasphemy, but actually insanity. Look at Mubarak Bala. You know, he spent a lot of his time in prison for blasphemy in a psychiatric ward. I'm actually lost for words, but that is it. It's a matter of it's a sense of exclusion, which is almost unimaginable. So, and you know, to not be a part of that society, to have to go outside of it, or to go so deeply and alonely isn't the word, but solely into oneself to create your own comfort. It's especially for young people, it's a terrifying, disturbing journey. But I'm glad to say, again, always trust the young people. They are doing it, and they are doing it with such style, such class, such a land and fervo and wit and warmth. It just brings me joy to see, you know, the new generation, particularly this generation of African young skeptics, unbelievers. I don't know if I just spend too much online, but I do get the impression that it's growing, of course, not growing fast enough for my comfort, but it appears to be growing and becoming a force to be reckoned with. And it's getting mainstream attention, which it would never have got. I would say even 10 years ago.

Online Unbelief & Guarding Against Homogenised Humanism

Audrey Simmons

And that was gonna be my next question about the online platform, the TikTok, the TikTokers and all of these of these. Is that the future? Is that where we're going? Is that how we are gonna be able to kind of progress our message?

S.I. Martin

Yes, I think so for the time being, because it's second nature to uh, you know, the generation born in this century, the generations born in this century. It's second nature to them, which is both sad and glorious as well. But to seek community of some sort online and to have that extended and potentially global as well, area of fellowship and collective meaning. So um I've got my issues with those platforms and formats, but for a first step, getting voices like Queen Erin I, incredible, incredible unbeliever, um, who is learned as well. Very, very learned, deeply steeped in this, but so funny. And, you know, who can just push that message and without having anyone over her shoulder? Seraphina Simone, that Igbo boy, all of them uh very, very powerful voices with uh huge audiences. Uh yeah, the future, or at least the present, uh offers some hope.

Audrey Simmons

And that's good to know. I think that's and I suppose, but I I kind of wonder, so we've got this platform of black people, of young black people putting their voices out there. And I just wonder, again, we were talking about that cultural aspect of it. Do you think that will be lost, even though they're African, even though because when you've got this kind of space that is neutral or just, you know, it's just individuals, that collective voice, when we think of Ubuntu, when we think of that collective voice, do you think that will get lost?

S.I. Martin

I fear that it might, or even worse than just that getting lost, bad as that would be. It's replacement by this sort of like global English-speaking, middle class, neutered, overly American point of reference universe, which is sellable, which is accessible, which would become a sort of ling lingua franca uh for young people nowadays. And uh, hmm, that could happen. That would not be good.

Audrey Simmons

Yeah, because in this popularist soundbite, you know, you know what I mean? 10 what is it? We've got 60 seconds to kind of get our thoughts across and a little bit more. We then have to pick the juiciest, most salient, or just those little bits to fire at people, and we lose, and I think we can see that now, the nuance. And you were talking about history being complicated. It isn't just about heroes, it's heroes with all the sticky bits that go with them. And I think we can end up with this kind of mushy, bland, beige kind of humanism or non-belief that doesn't represent anything really, doesn't really kind of say anything.

S.I. Martin

There will be some of that anyway. It's just a matter of somehow being alive and being awake to the need just to keep that tant down or at least keep an eye on it, because it will be, it will come. But still, I think it's a good step forward and um a lot more positives can come out of it than negatives.

Audrey Simmons

Okay,

When Progressive Institutions Start Looking Religious

Audrey Simmons

yeah. We can we can just live in hope, fingers crossed, as you say. Just thinking sort of bigger there, for thinking about what institutions and the conversations and cultural shifts do you think will shape the future um, you know, of non-belief? Where were those kind of new external voices going to come from?

S.I. Martin

Called, I I don't know. I don't know. And that's where I fear, maybe I'm scared to think about that question, Audrey, because I worry that any new institution, because I can't think of anything that we have now which is fit for purpose, but uh not off the top of my head, but um, I worry that any new body which can, you know, get to work on this stuff might start imitating sort of religious behaviors and patterns and forms and demands of people, even if it's just having formalized dress or some sort of fixed body of text. I I I'm just worried that religion, not religion, but the religious exoskeleton might creep in by um another door, you know, masquerading as progressivism. I don't know. Maybe I think too much about this.

Audrey Simmons

I think you've got a point. I mean, I used to be a humanist wedding celebrant, and that opened up the door. You can do anything you want with this. You know, I come along and I'd say, do anything you want, let's know the words you're and what everybody did was just create the standard wedding without the god bit. So they'd have vowels and all of these things, and some would throw in a little, you know, a little rope, um sort of hand tying or sand or something, a mixing of sands, and there would be a little thing, and then there was a little love cup and things like that that would turn up, you know to me, to kind of be a little bit whoa. But the format became very much the standard recognized format of what a wedding should be. So that even with you know, when you have too much choice or the idea of just doing something, wait, no one wanted to do it. Everyone was comfortable and you know, in this kind of idea, we won't say God, we won't say any of the things, we won't won't read scripture, but the format will stay the same. So I hear what you're saying that we'll just take, you know, standard stuff that we all recognize and then just overlay it with, you know, something that's non-religious. And I think that's what religion did in the first place. It took pagan holidays, pagan set festivals, and then just overlaid it with religion. So we just seem to we could just repeat that pattern.

S.I. Martin

Yes, that's one yeah, something I worry about. At least there's more flexibility with paganism, yeah, cold comfort. But there's some flexibility with paganism if we have to.

Audrey Simmons

Before we go, I want to bring it on to a positive note.

What Gives Steve Hope

Audrey Simmons

What gives you hope? What gives Steve hope for the future of the black community and you know its non-religious pathway?

S.I. Martin

Well, I mean, I'm back to my cliche. The young people, and they get too much of a bad rap. Obviously, there are things which need to be addressed, but the spread of ideas, the openness emotionally that they display, also the understanding of that they are part of a diaspora, which I think, apart from some parts of North American culture, you know, it's pretty broad spread and just generally accepted. There are problems with that, but it's still there. So I think those little steps, and they're not little steps at all, but particularly the openness about our own individual and collective experiences and the discussions that you know are being had around them, are a great step forward. Yeah, an increase in skepticism, but everything's to do with the younger generations who, in many ways, are our youngers and betters.

Audrey Simmons

Before and on that note, Steve, I think we'll call it a day. I want to thank you so much for the conversation. My pleasure. It really was a joy. And just to kind of get your perspective and have this discussion. So if you've enjoyed today's episode, um please follow us wherever you get your podcast. And don't forget to share and like and tell your friends. And follow Association with Black Humanists on Meetup. You'll find out what we're doing, where we're what activities we're at, and where we're meeting. This has been Secular Sankova. Until the next time, speak boldly, think freely, and live consciously. I've been your host, Audrey Simmons. Until the next time.

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Audrey Simmons

Host
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Clive Aruede

Co-host
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Lola Tinubu

Co-host
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S.I. Martin

Guest

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